A MARTÍNEZ, HOST:
We're joined now by Dr. Demetre Daskalakis. He's the former director of the National Center for Immunization and Respiratory Diseases at the CDC. He resigned in August, citing concern for the direction of the agency under its current leadership. Doctor, I'll just read to you the first line from the CDC's website on autism and vaccines.
(Reading) The claim - vaccines do not cause autism - is not evidence-based claim because studies have not ruled out the possibility that infant vaccines cause autism.
So what do you make of that when you hear that?
DEMETRE DASKALAKIS: It's doublespeak, bottom line. There's also no evidence that umbrellas cause kitten - don't cause kittens. It is literally trying to say that there's some sort of misinformation or distortion of data when, in fact, vaccines do not cause autism. Forty very high-quality studies with almost 6 million people in them, conducted in seven countries, have been very clear that vaccines do not cause autism. So when I hear that, my response is, this is why I left the CDC. You're seeing the ideology of RFK Jr. elevated into the space of legitimate science by being branded as a CDC document.
MARTÍNEZ: So...
DASKALAKIS: When you can't...
MARTÍNEZ: Yeah.
DASKALAKIS: ...Prove that something is causing a problem, just put up a piece of paper on the website, and then it makes it real. It's magical thinking
MARTÍNEZ: So, Doctor, then I want to read to you the second line, then, considering what you just said. So here's the second line from that part, autism and vaccines.
(Reading) Studies supporting a link have been ignored by health authorities.
Does that sound argumentative to you, or what do you make of that one?
DASKALAKIS: It sounds like the same old rhetoric, the same anti-vaccine tropes that we've heard for a very long time. I think that right now you have RFK Jr., who has now elevated his ideology into an official document. I think the bottom line is that every scientist that I've ever spoken to, every review that I've ever seen, every meta-analysis, everything that is done in high quality actually does report that vaccines do not cause autism. So the bottom line is that when I hear that, I hear the vendetta, which is why you're seeing the destruction of CDC and public health. The secretary does not respect public health, does not understand science and, frankly, is weaponizing CDC for the potential future profit of his colleagues and himself.
MARTÍNEZ: What do you think might happen to public health? What do you think the effect might be when the CDC take a...
DASKALAKIS: I think it's...
MARTÍNEZ: ...Position like this?
DASKALAKIS: Yeah. I think it's already happened. So, you know, like I said, when I resigned, my principal reason for resigning is that science has been supplanted by ideology and that the scientists at CDC have been held hostage while others create policy and documents and really, you know, formulate data analyses that are not best practice. CDC really - it can't really be trusted right now. And I think it may be true in other areas, but quite certainly in vaccines, I can say with great certainty that I would not trust anything coming out of CDC at this point or in this era. Their behavior - and by them, I mean HHS'. It is not the CDC scientists. But the behavior of HHS demonstrates that they're using CDC as a shield for whatever their nefarious ends are.
MARTÍNEZ: Dr. Demetre, there will be some people that will read these new lines in the - on the CDC's website and think that finally someone is listening to them. What is your message to them?
DASKALAKIS: I mean, you know, the most important thing is that, you know, I think public health has had a very complex past few years, ever since COVID. And the lesson, I think, has been very clear that you really cannot have effective public health without really good community engagement and listening. You need political will, and you really need good science. And so I think what's really important is that public health needs to listen better. But just because you think it or feel it doesn't mean that it's true.
I am really struck by a line on the new CDC website that says the rise in autism prevalence since the 1980s correlates with the rise in the number of vaccines given to infants. That is bad science. Many things have also increased in the same era. And so parents who really feel more seen here - I think it's really important to say that, you know, they're being preyed upon by someone who is giving them incorrect information and false hope so that he and his colleagues can profit in the future, potentially from litigation. I mean, the bottom line is...
MARTÍNEZ: Yeah.
DASKALAKIS: ...Like, with this document up in the world, RFK Jr. now has the ability to, you know, potentially alter the vaccine injury compensation program. That's...
MARTÍNEZ: Doc...
DASKALAKIS: ...The program that really protects companies...
MARTÍNEZ: Yeah.
DASKALAKIS: ...So that they're able to produce vaccines.
MARTÍNEZ: Doctor, quickly - just a few seconds - where should people be looking for information if they're considering vaccinating their kids?
DASKALAKIS: No, it's great. Pediatricians. This is one of the most sacred relationships that people have between their kids' parents and their doctors. You know, the secretary said when he testified to Congress, do not listen to him for medical advice. Let me echo that. He's right. Don't. The right source is your medical provider, whether it's a pediatrician, a nurse, a pharmacist.
MARTÍNEZ: OK.
DASKALAKIS: Look toward your local health departments, and also look toward the professional organizations that...
MARTÍNEZ: Thank you, but...
DASKALAKIS: ...Represent doctors.
MARTÍNEZ: ...We're going to leave it right there. That's Dr. Demetre...
DASKALAKIS: Great.
MARTÍNEZ: ...Daskalakis, former director of the National Center for Immunization and Respiratory Diseases at the CDC. Transcript provided by NPR, Copyright NPR.
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