STEVE INSKEEP, HOST:
Leon Panetta knows Susie Wiles' job. He had it when Bill Clinton was president. When we talked about the profile of Wiles, one of Panetta's first thoughts was that Wiles serves a president with a different style.
LEON PANETTA: Well, there's no question that she's working with somebody who is not your normal CEO or president or an individual who kind of understands how to work with advisers and with others. He almost deliberately took steps to make sure that he would have more individuals around him who were loyal to him rather than willing to question his judgment. And so in light of that, I think the chief of staff almost has to play a very different kind of role, you know, in working with a president like Trump, which is to give him, obviously, a lot of room. He's somebody who operates by gut instinct, operates based on what he wants to get done. And to a large extent, I think the challenge is one not of questioning the president, not of challenging the president, but trying to enable the president to try to get what he wants done accomplished.
INSKEEP: It sounds reasonable because you do want a chief of staff to help you get things done. But are you suggesting that maybe a chief of staff's job also is to challenge the president or put contrary opinions in front of him?
PANETTA: Without question, I think it's very important for a president of the United States to have somebody who is willing to look the president in the eye and tell him when he's about to make a mistake.
INSKEEP: Can you recall a time that you had to tell the president no?
PANETTA: Absolutely. A lot of times, where I would go in - I would go in in the morning with a rundown of the president's schedule and the different appointments he had and the different issues that were breaking out that day. And the president would sometimes be angered by what was being asked. And so he would react and say, I want you to do this, or, I want you to do that. And if I thought that it was the wrong step to take, I would say, Mr. President, you can't do that. You just can't do that. And I can remember a great deal. When the president used to prepare for press conferences, we would have Al Gore, his vice president. We'd have the press secretary in the room, other advisers. And we would be throwing questions at the president, and he would give an answer. And I can remember Al Gore saying, oh, that's a wonderful answer. It'll be at the head of the news tonight. So the president was willing to accept that kind of criticism and guidance.
INSKEEP: Just to be clear, the vice president was saying to Bill Clinton, if you say that, you'll be the lead story in the news and not in a good way.
PANETTA: Yeah. That's exactly right.
INSKEEP: Got it.
PANETTA: That's exactly right. And it was a great way to kind of make the president understand that if he said that, it would be a negative reaction that could hurt him in the morning.
INSKEEP: It's interesting because you're describing the chief of staff as someone who's maybe a firewall for a president's emotions. It's such a tough job. This president has a different idea - that he should share everything with the public at all times. And it seems from this article that Susie Wiles has tended to persuade herself that a bad idea is not such a bad idea after all, or what she thinks is a bad idea. She didn't think it was a good idea, for example, to pardon all the January 6 offenders, but decided in the end that it was all right.
PANETTA: Yeah. I think you have to be loyal to the president. You have to give him, obviously, the room. He needs to do what he wants to do. He is, after all, a person who is president, elected by the people to be president. But when a president is about to do something that you think is morally wrong or a mistake - a serious mistake - I think it's very important, first of all, to make sure the president understands why it's a mistake. And if the president persists in doing it, then I think you have to ask yourself a very serious question. Can I continue to serve an individual that has made a decision that I believe is morally wrong? I think you have to be strong enough to do the right thing.
INSKEEP: Obviously, as a journalist, I would be biased on this point. I'm in favor of officials talking to reporters. I have talked to White House chiefs of staff while they've been serving. But did she betray confidence on some level by speaking so frankly while still in office?
PANETTA: You know, I have to tell you that I think it's fundamental to the role of chief of staff not to think that you're an independent actor. What I sense in this article is that she says a lot of things that ultimately are going to hurt the president because it shows that he's unable to have people around him that are competent and that are doing the job.
INSKEEP: Leon Panetta, it's a pleasure talking with you again. Thank you so much.
PANETTA: Good to be with you. Transcript provided by NPR, Copyright NPR.
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